Had an exchange with one of the guys at Grace Community Church who leads a men’s bible study. He rebuked me on my view of the fivefold. I told him to “study more”. That came across arrogantly and highlighted my disdain for the local church and how they think they have it all going on. But to have influence, I need to learn how to communicate. Here is an attempt at fixing my mess.
Hey Tim,
Let me again apologize for the way I communicated yesterday. There is definitely a better way.
The Back Story
I am not making excuses for anything. There really is a better way. I found it very inspiring that you were on the fivefold. You dont hear it talked about much in church circles. I believe it is from God that you are digging into because we are definitely moving into a time where Apostles and Prophets are being re-seated to their proper places in the Kingdom, and that includes the local church. That move started in the 70’s with the restoration of the Prophet and then into the 80’s for the Apostle, and it continues today. I would imagine that things were happening even before that timeframe.
For me, the journey has been filled with some hard stuff coming from the local church and church leaders. I really dont hold the local church in high regard nor do I value a spirit of religion, spiritual pride, etc. commonly on display in many local churches. No one should. But, Jesus is very fond of His church, and it is a wrong heart to come against that. It isn’t even a smart move.
For whatever reason, prophetic voices tend not to be accepted in most local churches and somehow “pastors” or even “teachers” have been elevated to a place they dont occupy. I am convinced that the reason we see the fallout rate of pastors from the church is because they attempt to occupy an office not appointed to them.There is no grace for it. It is draining at a minimum. The dropout and suicide rates alone support my hypothesis.
I just had a series of conversations with an extremely soft-spirited yet prophetic lady who asked her own church leadership about miracles. They take a cessationist position and told her that she didnt need to come there any longer when she asked about the matter. She even relayed all the scripture to support the miraculous, but it was futile. She asked for a meeting. One dude resorted to outbursts as ways to control and manipulate (witchcraft) the conversation. These are “elders”. This is pervasive.
And, this has been my experience over and over, and I am not talking just cessationism.
My own position is that the local church is the very reason the state of our culture is in the place it is. While that may be true, it is damaging to come in a spirit of judgment against the church instead of carrying a redemptive heart towards the situation. I am working on that too. I think it goes back to the mass amount of rejection that the church throws on folks like me. So, my reaction can be a bit aggressive.
But, you called it out yourself. The smoke and mirrors, church program mindset is going away and will be replaced with repentance, holiness, the Kingdom and nothing but Jesus. The Good News is coming back. Change is coming quickly.
Harvey can speak to that more deeply, I imagine.
For me, maturity and humility move beyond the church’s negative issues and sees the pathway to redemption. I need to keep digging into helping however God wants no matter how people receive me. This too is what I am working on.
I am really sorry for not being there yet. I guess there are some areas that need to be healed. There is a level of humility I still need, and there is a big need for love and compassion for the local church and its people that God needs to impart into me.
I am working that out.
The Fivefold
In terms of the fivefold, I have been personally studying this very topic for about eighteen years.
My position on it is that the fivefold speaks to the government of God for the New Covenant age. These are people who are specifically given to the BODY for equipping, maturing, etc. They occupy offices and carry grace on their lives that others do not. Apostles have grace for territorial dominance, for example. They go into a region where principalities exist but have the goods to displace that spirit(s) and plant. They typically do not stay in place for long periods but move onto other regions. That is where the Pastor comes in to help shepherd what was started. Prophets speak to the direction of where God is taking the body. They also bring correction. This is different from 1 Cor 14:3 and what “prophecy” if for all believers. Prophets go beyond that. The list goes on. All five MUST work together for the fullness of the Kingdom to be made manifest. We have not been doing that for a long time.
When you introduced the idea of “elders”, that immediately told me your perspective on this matter because eldership deals with the local church. But the fivefold is way beyond the local church. In the NT, you will see that the Elders were appointed by the Apostles. This is part of their function. A governmental anointing to appoint is on the Apostle. An administrative anointing to oversee is on the Elder. But, the oversight brought by the Elder is for the local church. You normally do not see Elders carrying grace for many churches. It can happen for sure, but it is not commonplace. Apostles have grace for geographic regions beyond a single church. Look at Paul.
These are completely different functions.
The other point is that when the fivefold is commingled in conversation with eldership, that speaks to the “church age”. We have left that age behind. That is an old wineskin. We are in the “Kingdom Age”. God is returning the proper governance to the entire body. The local church is only one expression of a function of the body. The Kingdom extends to everything. I believe the church age mindset is one of the reasons that people think business isn’t a ministry or that serving in government isn’t ministry, etc. There is a false mindset that holiness is only found in the church itself and that only “pastors” are the guys to do ministry.
The fivefold actually operates in all spheres of society. When Bill Bright and Lauren Cunningham first released the Seven Mountain concept, it was, in my opinion, the beginning of the public shift to the Kingdom age. I was at Daystar when Johnny Enlow started getting revelation on the more modern application of the Seven Mountain mandate. Lance Wallnau also was getting stuff on that at that time. Johnny’s book on the matter is profound by the way.
We are seeing the governance structure of God’s Kingdom coming to every sphere of society: business, government, religion, education, etc. The fivefold will be active in very area and still carry the mandate as found in Ephesians 4. Yes, there are “apostles” in business or other spheres. Same for the other offices. This is also why we have been getting a lot of revelation on the Ekklesia (sp?). We are beginning to understand the idea of ruling and reigning with Christ, and that goes everywhere well beyond church walls.
So, yea, there are Elders. But, that is only thinking about “church”. That is not the only thing that God is on. He is on EVERYTHING EVERYWHERE, including the church, and the fivefold play a key part and grace to function everywhere.
The fivefold are actual people who are called by God and given to His people through Christ. They are indeed gifts. Their very DNA is to operate in their function rather than people operating out of a gift set. “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you; before you were born, I sanctified you; and I ordained you a prophet to the nations.” This is true in OT and NT.
You can always tell when someone says they are one of those but are not. It is a death sentence to be an Apostle or a Prophet. That is scriptural. Hebrews 11 speaks to it. So does Revelation and the two witnesses.
Those who are in those offices will talk about great encounters with God, walk in a lot of power and have stories of extreme trials. If someone ever tells me they are one but do not have the story of how hard it has been, I run from them. Anyone “desiring” to be one doesnt know what they are asking for. It is not an enjoyable ride at all. But, it is glorious all the same.
If the local church embraced the Apostle and Prophet and even the Evangelist, things would be very different. I actually believe that Bethel Church out of Redding models this better than any church that I am personally aware of. Bill Johnson and Kris Valloton fill those respective roles. This church has a global footprint and reaches into every sphere of society. I believe this is what the LORD is after and has raised that church up to be a prototype of what is to come.
Again, I celebrate and share your sentiments that “church” is going to change. I believe Holy Spirit is on that for sure, and the mere fact that you are one of the early voices at Grace to bring it up (know that I hardly know anyone there), tells me you have a role in ushering that in.
I know this is long. Hopefully, I have done a better job at communicating my perspective this time around. I get that you might see it differently.
I am sorry I dont walk in the maturity or humility necessary to more successfully navigate that conversation. I will get there.
If you ever want to chat further, I would love the opportunity.
If not, I understand as well.
Peace,
John
John Stein
john@troutprophets.com
970-765-8474